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Interesting Concepts in Science and Mathematics

valamhic

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Off topic here, Val it seems some sock is pretending to be your good self over on the isle.
Explain why it is off topic. He posted that multi phase currents were proof there are negative numbers, What are we dealing with here is not science and numbers, Check the OP and caption.
 

Thelasthurrah

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Explain why it is off topic. He posted that multi phase currents were proof there are negative numbers, What are we dealing with here is not science and numbers, Check the OP and caption.
I meant my post is off topic, read it again and let me know.
The subject of this thread is gobbledygook to me Val, I may as well be looking into your silage pit!
 

valamhic

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I meant my post is off topic, read it again and let me know.
The subject of this thread is gobbledygook to me Val, I may as well be looking into your silage pit!
OK. The fact that you admit you find it hard going means you have a degree of logical intelligence. Its a bit of fun and should provoke thought. My claim is that if there was such a thing as a minus number, there would have to be a square root it if there was. Every positive number has a square root., i.e. 194 has a sq root of 13.92 (13.92 X 13.92) = 194.

A minus number has no square root and therefore cannot exist. -194 has no sq root, try it on the computer calculator. 1 - 195 = -194 sq root gives an invalid input.

roc had some theory about electricity, but he never came back to be on it. My claim is very radical. Very Very radical and I appear to be the only one alive holding it. This makes for good debate and a bit of fun too.
 
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DrAwkward

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OK. The fact that you admit you find it hard going means you have a degree of logical intelligence. Its a bit of fun and should provoke thought. My claim is that if there was such a thing as a minus number, there would have to be a square root it if there was. Every positive number has a square root., i.e. 194 has a sq root of 13.92 (13.92 X 13.92) = 194.

A minus number has no square root and therefore cannot exist. -194 has no sq root, try it on the computer calculator. 1 - 195 = -194 sq root gives an invalid input.

roc had some theory about electricity, but he never came back to be on it. My claim is very radical. Very Very radical and I appear to be the only one alive holding it. This makes for good debate and a bit of fun too.

it's a very useful abstraction which helps solve real world problems.
And you can usefully manipulate it by assigning "i" to the quantity.

People started out with only positive integers. everything was fine.
you could count and add and multiply these

Then eventually after much messing about people came up with the notions of an "equation" and of "algebra" in their quest to abstract and solve some real problems and puzzles.

This is where many of the real headaches with numbers started
people began to come up with equations which gave absurd solutions.

4x +1=1 (x must be nothing)
adding "0" as an acceptable number allowed this class of equations to have a solution (x=zero)

The greek Diophantus came up with an equation 4x+20=0 which was considered absurd
because it demanded that "negative numbers" were needed to solve this.

This class of equation could be solved if you just allowed for the existence in the abstract of these "negative numbers". So we extended our set of known numbers
to include negative numbers

However this was not enough either.
Some absolute bastard came up with the notion of ax=b
which implies x=b/a (the rational numbers)
again we extended our set of known numbers to include numbers
that were solutions for this class of equations

Then yet another complete dickhead opened his trap and asked
about the solution of x= the squareroot of 2.
This was not a number that could be represented as a ratio of integers or anything else we had thus far. So we came up with (complicated!) definitions for the real numbers. Numbers with non terminating non recurring decimals that cannot be represented properly by integer ratios.
This class of numbers included such numbers as pi, e, and root 2

As if this was not enough, some other total shithead decided it was a good idea to ask about equations of the form x=square root -1. Fuck that guy!

So again we had to further generalise our set of known classes of numbers into the form a+ib
in order to manipulate the set of numbers which include this quantity i (root -1).
Numbers in this form were referred to as "complex numbers"

However magically this is where the process of extending our set of possible numbers to allow for solutions to algebraic equations seems to stop.
We now can solve pretty much any algebraic equation
that any annoying dipshit asshole decides to come up with.

Anyway, to summarise, complex numbers of the form a+ib (where i=square root of -1)
were part of a natural and very logical progression that proved mathematically necessary to
allow for the existence of solutions for various classes of algebraic equations that
annoying little fuckers insisted on asking questions about!

A nice potted intro lecture here from the master himself Richard Feynman
goes slightly further and links these complex numbers back to geometry
which is ultimately what leads to it's use in the calculation of phase information
in time varying electric signals

 
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valamhic

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it's a very useful abstraction which helps solve real world problems.
And you can usefully manipulate it by assigning "i" to the quantity.

People started out with only positive integers. everything was fine.
you could count and add and multiply these

Then eventually after much messing about people came up with the notions of an "equation" and of "algebra" in their quest to abstract and solve some real problems and puzzles.

This is where many of the real headaches with numbers started
people began to come up with equations which gave absurd solutions.

4x +1=1 (x must be nothing)
adding "0" as an acceptable number allowed this class of equations to have a solution (x=zero)

The greek Diophantus came up with an equation 4x+20=0 which was considered absurd
because it demanded that "negative numbers" were needed to solve this.

This class of equation could be solved if you just allowed for the existence in the abstract of these "negative numbers". So we extended our set of known numbers
to include negative numbers

However this was not enough either.
Some absolute bastard came up with the notion of ax=b
which implies x=b/a (the rational numbers)
again we extended our set of known numbers to include numbers
that were solutions for this class of equations

Then yet another complete dickhead opened his trap and asked
about the solution of x= the squareroot of 2.
This was not a number that could be represented as a ratio of integers or anything else we had thus far. So we came up with (complicated!) definitions for the real numbers. Numbers with non terminating non recurring decimals that cannot be represented properly by integer ratios.
This class of numbers included such numbers as pi, e, and root 2

As if this was not enough, some other total shithead decided it was a good idea to ask about equations of the form x=square root -1. Fuck that guy!

So again we had to further generalise our set of known classes of numbers into the form a+ib
in order to manipulate the set of numbers which include this quantity i (root -1).
Numbers in this form were referred to as "complex numbers"

However magically this is where the process of extending our set of possible numbers to allow for solutions to algebraic equations seems to stop.
We now can solve pretty much any algebraic equation
that any annoying dipshit asshole decides to come up with.

Anyway, to summarise, complex numbers of the form a+ib (where i=square root of -1)
were part of a natural and very logical progression that proved mathematically necessary to
allow for the existence of solutions for various classes of algebraic equations that
annoying little fuckers insisted on asking questions about!

A nice potted intro lecture here from the master himself Richard Feynman
goes slightly further and links these complex numbers back to geometry
which is ultimately what leads to it's use in the calculation of phase information
in time varying electric signals

This is a very good post comprising good logic and historical information. Whether it is all correct does not matter to me, if there are mistakes, I don't mind. Unfortunately on these sites, an error is perceived by some as a sign of ignorance. To postulate is seen as a sign of an upstart.
Not to me. To me the poster who puts up such material as this excites me into further exploration and discourse. I wrote this verse of a poem.

You can have the craic - without attack.
 

valamhic

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it's a very useful abstraction which helps solve real world problems.
And you can usefully manipulate it by assigning "i" to the quantity.

People started out with only positive integers. everything was fine.
you could count and add and multiply these

Then eventually after much messing about people came up with the notions of an "equation" and of "algebra" in their quest to abstract and solve some real problems and puzzles.

This is where many of the real headaches with numbers started
people began to come up with equations which gave absurd solutions.

4x +1=1 (x must be nothing)
adding "0" as an acceptable number allowed this class of equations to have a solution (x=zero)

The greek Diophantus came up with an equation 4x+20=0 which was considered absurd
because it demanded that "negative numbers" were needed to solve this.

This class of equation could be solved if you just allowed for the existence in the abstract of these "negative numbers". So we extended our set of known numbers
to include negative numbers

However this was not enough either.
Some absolute bastard came up with the notion of ax=b
which implies x=b/a (the rational numbers)
again we extended our set of known numbers to include numbers
that were solutions for this class of equations

Then yet another complete dickhead opened his trap and asked
about the solution of x= the squareroot of 2.
This was not a number that could be represented as a ratio of integers or anything else we had thus far. So we came up with (complicated!) definitions for the real numbers. Numbers with non terminating non recurring decimals that cannot be represented properly by integer ratios.
This class of numbers included such numbers as pi, e, and root 2

As if this was not enough, some other total shithead decided it was a good idea to ask about equations of the form x=square root -1. Fuck that guy!

So again we had to further generalise our set of known classes of numbers into the form a+ib
in order to manipulate the set of numbers which include this quantity i (root -1).
Numbers in this form were referred to as "complex numbers"

However magically this is where the process of extending our set of possible numbers to allow for solutions to algebraic equations seems to stop.
We now can solve pretty much any algebraic equation
that any annoying dipshit asshole decides to come up with.

Anyway, to summarise, complex numbers of the form a+ib (where i=square root of -1)
were part of a natural and very logical progression that proved mathematically necessary to
allow for the existence of solutions for various classes of algebraic equations that
annoying little fuckers insisted on asking questions about!

A nice potted intro lecture here from the master himself Richard Feynman
goes slightly further and links these complex numbers back to geometry
which is ultimately what leads to it's use in the calculation of phase information
in time varying electric signals

Suppose I am correct for a moment that there is no such thing as a negative number, the immediate question arises
"where does that leave zero?)". I postulate that it does not exist either.

Readers here will have neighbours living close by.

You may have the Zoskeys and the Smiths. I may have the Burns', the Reilly's and the Fitzpatricks. How many neighbouring homes are occupied by the Fazghoes? For me its is zero and for everyone here reading this it is also zero.

Number of Fazghoes neighbours = zero for all reading this thread.

There are no Fazghoes neighbours because there are no people by the name of Fazghoes in Ireland. The name Fazghoes does not exist. Therefore in relation to "0" it does not exist.

What is the average number of Fazghoes in each Irish county?

0/26 = zero because there are no Fazchoes at all and no amount of dividing or multiplying will create them. If you want to add 3 Fazghoes to the existing number, you first have to find 3, if the reason you can't find them is that there are none, then 3 cannot be added. 3 Fazghoes does not exist.
 
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valamhic

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Awkard. Just asking. Are there are simple algebra puzzles which could also be solved by ordinary math's. I seem to be able to work out any measurement in engineering etc without it.
 

DrAwkward

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Awkard. Just asking. Are there are simple algebra puzzles which could also be solved by ordinary math's. I seem to be able to work out any measurement in engineering etc without it.
Plenty. But here's a fun one that touches on what we were discussing
i.e. using abstract concepts to solve real world problems.

You can solve it using "real world" math logic.
But you can solve it easier if you use something else!! :LOL:

"Five men and a monkey were shipwrecked on an island. They spent the first night gathering coconuts. During the night, one man woke up and decided to take his share of the coconuts. He divided them into five piles. One coconut was left over so he gave it to the monkey, then hid his share, put the rest back together, and went back to sleep.

Soon a second man woke up and did the same thing. After dividing the coconuts into five piles, one coconut was left over which he gave to the monkey. He then hid his share, put the rest back together, and went back to bed.

The third, fourth, and fifth man followed exactly the same procedure.

The next morning, after they all woke up, they divided the remaining coconuts into five equal shares. Again just one was left over which they gave to the monkey.

How many coconuts were there in the original pile?"
 
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Thelasthurrah

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Full Member
Plenty. But here'sa fun one that touches on what we were discussing
i.e. using abstract concepts to solve real world problems.

You can solve it using "real world" math logic.
But you can solve it easier if you use something else!! :LOL:

"Five men and a monkey were shipwrecked on an island. They spent the first night gathering coconuts. During the night, one man woke up and decided to take his share of the coconuts. He divided them into five piles. One coconut was left over so he gave it to the monkey, then hid his share, put the rest back together, and went back to sleep.

Soon a second man woke up and did the same thing. After dividing the coconuts into five piles, one coconut was left over which he gave to the monkey. He then hid his share, put the rest back together, and went back to bed.

The third, fourth, and fifth man followed exactly the same procedure.

The next morning, after they all woke up, they divided the remaining coconuts into five equal shares. Again just one was left over which they gave to the monkey.

How many coconuts were there in the original pile?"
I'm gonna have a stroke!😱😂
 
OP
Tadhg Gaelach

Tadhg Gaelach

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Suppose I am correct for a moment that there is no such thing as a negative number, the immediate question arises
"where does that leave zero?)". I postulate that it does not exist either.

Readers here will have neighbours living close by.

You may have the Zoskeys and the Smiths. I may have the Burns', the Reilly's and the Fitzpatricks. How many neighbouring homes are occupied by the Fazghoes? For me its is zero and for everyone here reading this it is also zero.

Number of Fazghoes neighbours = zero for all reading this thread.

There are no Fazghoes neighbours because there are no people by the name of Fazghoes in Ireland. The name Fazghoes does not exist. Therefore in relation to "0" it does not exist.

What is the average number of Fazghoes in each Irish county?

0/26 = zero because there are no Fazchoes at all and no amount of dividing or multiplying will create them. If you want to add 3 Fazghoes to the existing number, you first have to find 3, if the reason you can't find them is that there are none, then 3 cannot be added. 3 Fazghoes does not exist.


Have a look at this series and tell me what you think.

 
Was one of the coconuts milky Joe :LOL:

 

valamhic

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I've always wondered how technologically advanced we'd be had the Roman Empire never collapsed, e.g. without a 1,000 year Medieval period, would we have colonised the solar system and beyond by now.
The Romans never spotted the potential of coal. They used charcoal for smelting iron. They should have spotted it. They never copped the potential of saltpetre either to make gun powder.
The invention of the steam engine was held back by the inability to make strong steel boilers. Before that the maximum pressure a boiler could withstand was 5 pounds per sq inch.

In my time, the mobile phone was held back by the inability to make small batteries.

I wonder shy they did not spot the oil and distil it. The moment oil came along the Internal combustion engine was invented.
 
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